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Yahoo!Member Opinions:
By: tealady on 2/6/09
give the kids a break, they've probably had no idea their lives weren't normal and now these people appear after 20 years...it's a shock for goodness sake let it sink in and see if they even want to go through all this media mess first. Talk to them on the phone or something don't just fly across the country and guilt them into a reunion they may or may not be ready to have.
give the kids a break, they've probably had no idea their lives weren't normal and now these people appear after 20 years...it's a shock for goodness sake let it sink in and see if they even want to go through all this media mess first. Talk to them on the phone or something don't just fly across the country and guilt them into a reunion they may or may not be ready to have.
By: Jamie on 2/6/09
If your children had been taken from you...how would you feel?
If your children had been taken from you...how would you feel?
By: Boo on 2/6/09
Tealady you are right! These two young people have had their world turned upside down. The man they have called dad is about to be charged with kidnapping, the real parents are strangers to them, and what was a happy life to them has been destroyed. Give these children time to absorb this mess and figure out what THEY want to do!
Tealady you are right! These two young people have had their world turned upside down. The man they have called dad is about to be charged with kidnapping, the real parents are strangers to them, and what was a happy life to them has been destroyed. Give these children time to absorb this mess and figure out what THEY want to do!
By: achick on 2/6/09
the kids were 8 & 7 years old. They knew they were leaving with their grandparents. Did the grandparents not have custody of them up until the time they left? What is up with this?
the kids were 8 & 7 years old. They knew they were leaving with their grandparents. Did the grandparents not have custody of them up until the time they left? What is up with this?
By: PCLady on 2/6/09
in reply to "tealady" and "boo"~
i don't think the baskins are trying to "guilt" their adult children into anything. that's a terrible thing to say to or about parents who had their children kidnapped. it's not like the children weren't old enough to remember their parents. they weren't babies. they werre in second and third grade for heaven's sake. the man who is being charged with the crime HE committed with his, now deceased, wife, is the one who selfishly stripped away and destroyed the children's happy lives with their real mother, father and little brother. not to mention their cousins, aunts, uncles and other grandparents. they have a large and wonderful family that they've been deprived of for 20 years. they deserve to finally be reunited with their loving parents. if there is any guilt placed upon them it would surely be out of fear of dishonoring the grandparents who stripped them of love of their real family for the last two decades.
in reply to "tealady" and "boo"~
i don't think the baskins are trying to "guilt" their adult children into anything. that's a terrible thing to say to or about parents who had their children kidnapped. it's not like the children weren't old enough to remember their parents. they weren't babies. they werre in second and third grade for heaven's sake. the man who is being charged with the crime HE committed with his, now deceased, wife, is the one who selfishly stripped away and destroyed the children's happy lives with their real mother, father and little brother. not to mention their cousins, aunts, uncles and other grandparents. they have a large and wonderful family that they've been deprived of for 20 years. they deserve to finally be reunited with their loving parents. if there is any guilt placed upon them it would surely be out of fear of dishonoring the grandparents who stripped them of love of their real family for the last two decades.
By: attagirl on 2/6/09
To achick: the grandparents accused the parents of being satan worshippers 20 years ago and TRIED to get custody. They failed. So they kidnapped the kids and ran. There is no punishment severe enough for what they took away from that family.
To achick: the grandparents accused the parents of being satan worshippers 20 years ago and TRIED to get custody. They failed. So they kidnapped the kids and ran. There is no punishment severe enough for what they took away from that family.
By: Boo on 2/7/09
PCLady, without a doubt the grandfather committed a horrible crime for which he should, and will be punished. Without a doubt, it ripped these parents hearts out. I cannot imagine the pain and horror this family suffered, and my heart truly goes out to them. I don't think for a moment that they intentionally put any guilt on these children. But, these two young people will end up in court testifying against a man that they have lived with and loved for 20 years. There will be guilt felt here. Not the fault of the parents certainly. There are accusations flying everywhere and, like the rest of us, these two young people are going to have to sift thru it and try to find the truth. They are in a "no-win" situation, a tug of war. I just think that both sides of the family need to consider the childrens feelings. I would like to think that, in spite of all the media mess out there, these parents are helping these young people deal with the mental trauma they must be going thru. I am so sorry for what these parents went thru 20 years ago, but now it's time for all concerned to support these two young people and help them deal with this mess in the best way possible for all the family.
PCLady, without a doubt the grandfather committed a horrible crime for which he should, and will be punished. Without a doubt, it ripped these parents hearts out. I cannot imagine the pain and horror this family suffered, and my heart truly goes out to them. I don't think for a moment that they intentionally put any guilt on these children. But, these two young people will end up in court testifying against a man that they have lived with and loved for 20 years. There will be guilt felt here. Not the fault of the parents certainly. There are accusations flying everywhere and, like the rest of us, these two young people are going to have to sift thru it and try to find the truth. They are in a "no-win" situation, a tug of war. I just think that both sides of the family need to consider the childrens feelings. I would like to think that, in spite of all the media mess out there, these parents are helping these young people deal with the mental trauma they must be going thru. I am so sorry for what these parents went thru 20 years ago, but now it's time for all concerned to support these two young people and help them deal with this mess in the best way possible for all the family.
By: Boo on 2/7/09
Hey Mike! Did you see that? I did it without being cut into! Yea!!
Hey Mike! Did you see that? I did it without being cut into! Yea!!
By: Mr.A1 on 2/7/09
According to a related article at kcbs.com:
>>"Pitching the story to a San Diego paper
>> in January resulted in a front-page
>> article about the kidnapping.
>>
>> Bobby and his grandfather read the
>> article online and told people they know
>> how mad they were about the story,
>> Goodwin said."
For Bobby to get angry suggests he KNEW what his grandad had done and knew that he was not his real father. It begs the question "Was Bobby an accomplice in lying to his sister?" No wonder the girl is shook up and confused! Not only did her (grand)"father" lie to her for 20 years but apparently so might have her brother!
According to a related article at kcbs.com:
>>"Pitching the story to a San Diego paper
>> in January resulted in a front-page
>> article about the kidnapping.
>>
>> Bobby and his grandfather read the
>> article online and told people they know
>> how mad they were about the story,
>> Goodwin said."
For Bobby to get angry suggests he KNEW what his grandad had done and knew that he was not his real father. It begs the question "Was Bobby an accomplice in lying to his sister?" No wonder the girl is shook up and confused! Not only did her (grand)"father" lie to her for 20 years but apparently so might have her brother!
By: diddlede on 2/7/09
The children, now adults, need to be able to make up their own minds as to whether they want to reunite with their parents or not. To pressure them is not the way to go. Could be there are things that were never proven causing the Maples to take them away. If the children remember these things it is stirring up really bad memories of which they do not need. Now the children definitely know they were kipnapped so give them some space and let them decide on their own if they want to reunite with their real parents. Pressuring is not the answer. There will be enough pressure when their grandad goes to court. I am certain they will be dragged through it all and have to testify.
The children, now adults, need to be able to make up their own minds as to whether they want to reunite with their parents or not. To pressure them is not the way to go. Could be there are things that were never proven causing the Maples to take them away. If the children remember these things it is stirring up really bad memories of which they do not need. Now the children definitely know they were kipnapped so give them some space and let them decide on their own if they want to reunite with their real parents. Pressuring is not the answer. There will be enough pressure when their grandad goes to court. I am certain they will be dragged through it all and have to testify.
By: PCLady on 2/7/09
that is troubling to hear that possibly the children were in on this. i have to believe that the only way the maples could have persuaded the children to betray their own mother and father was to convince them that the ridiculous satanic worship mumbo jumbo was actually true. these kids need tons and tons of therapy! how absolutely evil of the maples to do this to that sweet family.
that is troubling to hear that possibly the children were in on this. i have to believe that the only way the maples could have persuaded the children to betray their own mother and father was to convince them that the ridiculous satanic worship mumbo jumbo was actually true. these kids need tons and tons of therapy! how absolutely evil of the maples to do this to that sweet family.
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/7/09
Just so you know satan worshippers do exist, everywhere and probably in larger numbers than we would like to believe. But you'll never catch them.
Let us ask ourselves this question, why would a man, then 53 yrs old, give up a huge house on a large piece of land to live in a small condo with almost no yard, give up a relationship with his own daughter, cut ties with all of his other family members for an undetermined amount of time that could be an eternity, and give up a good portion of the freedoms that he had to live an underground life running from the law ...Why would a man give his entire life for the safety and well-being of his grandkids...?? When this question gets answerered, and I'm sure it will, then maybe the real EVIL people in this situation will get what they deserve. The Maples had nothing to gain and no benefits for what they did, except for the peace of mind that their grandchildren were safe.
Remember, there is some truth behind every rumor...and the rumor is that the Baskins participated in lewd acts and also were affiliated with a satanic cult. Do you honestly think the Maples just made that up? For what reason? What did they have to gain from making up such a horrific story?
Seriously, this is so simple it makes me wonder if some of you people are into the same sick and dimented behavior.
I hope not.
"how evil of the maples...blah blah blah..." ARE YOU SERIOUS?
I will explain it one more time for you all,
THE MAPLES HAD NOTHING TO GAIN FOR MAKING THOSE ACCUSATIONS....THEY COULD HAVE DONE NOTHING, THEY COULD HAVE BEEN SELFISH, BUT THEY WERE NOT. Do you think Marvin Maple is going to sit in jail regreting what he and Sandra did for the wellbeing of those kids? Hell no. Not a chance--because he isn't a weak back peddling wrongdoer. Instead, Marvin Maple is a HERO.
Just so you know satan worshippers do exist, everywhere and probably in larger numbers than we would like to believe. But you'll never catch them.
Let us ask ourselves this question, why would a man, then 53 yrs old, give up a huge house on a large piece of land to live in a small condo with almost no yard, give up a relationship with his own daughter, cut ties with all of his other family members for an undetermined amount of time that could be an eternity, and give up a good portion of the freedoms that he had to live an underground life running from the law ...Why would a man give his entire life for the safety and well-being of his grandkids...?? When this question gets answerered, and I'm sure it will, then maybe the real EVIL people in this situation will get what they deserve. The Maples had nothing to gain and no benefits for what they did, except for the peace of mind that their grandchildren were safe.
Remember, there is some truth behind every rumor...and the rumor is that the Baskins participated in lewd acts and also were affiliated with a satanic cult. Do you honestly think the Maples just made that up? For what reason? What did they have to gain from making up such a horrific story?
Seriously, this is so simple it makes me wonder if some of you people are into the same sick and dimented behavior.
I hope not.
"how evil of the maples...blah blah blah..." ARE YOU SERIOUS?
I will explain it one more time for you all,
THE MAPLES HAD NOTHING TO GAIN FOR MAKING THOSE ACCUSATIONS....THEY COULD HAVE DONE NOTHING, THEY COULD HAVE BEEN SELFISH, BUT THEY WERE NOT. Do you think Marvin Maple is going to sit in jail regreting what he and Sandra did for the wellbeing of those kids? Hell no. Not a chance--because he isn't a weak back peddling wrongdoer. Instead, Marvin Maple is a HERO.
By: reservingjudgment on 2/7/09
Southsideca ... What an insightful post! You are absolutely right about all that the Maples gave up on behalf of their grandchildren. I wish more people would take the steps necessary to prevent child abuse. We have an SPCA. How about a Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children.
Southsideca ... What an insightful post! You are absolutely right about all that the Maples gave up on behalf of their grandchildren. I wish more people would take the steps necessary to prevent child abuse. We have an SPCA. How about a Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children.
By: eagle50 on 2/7/09
Info for southsideca--The children were living with the Maples because the parents were in KY because Mark was in college. They got a larger apartment and wanted the kids back. The accusations about abuse didn't begin until the parents wanted the kids back. According to another article, they were living with the grandparents for about 1 to 1/2 years before all this started. When the proper authority proved the abuse was false, the Maples accused the social worker and attorney also abused the grandkids. Before the court could take the kids from the grandparents, the grandparents fled the state with the kids. I just wonder if the Maples told you that part of the story. How can parents abuse their kids when they are in another state?
Info for southsideca--The children were living with the Maples because the parents were in KY because Mark was in college. They got a larger apartment and wanted the kids back. The accusations about abuse didn't begin until the parents wanted the kids back. According to another article, they were living with the grandparents for about 1 to 1/2 years before all this started. When the proper authority proved the abuse was false, the Maples accused the social worker and attorney also abused the grandkids. Before the court could take the kids from the grandparents, the grandparents fled the state with the kids. I just wonder if the Maples told you that part of the story. How can parents abuse their kids when they are in another state?
By: TimeforJustice on 2/7/09
Let's keep our noses out of it and let those involved sort this out. It was news 4 days ago...today it is just their business. The Baskins, their children and grandfather are all adults. I am sure they can figure out what is best for them without our two cents.
Let's keep our noses out of it and let those involved sort this out. It was news 4 days ago...today it is just their business. The Baskins, their children and grandfather are all adults. I am sure they can figure out what is best for them without our two cents.
By: Sameera on 2/7/09
Is Marvin Maple a hero, protecting his grandchildren from abuse, a deluded fellow who mistakenly believed his grandchildren were being abused, or an outright villain who stole his grandchildren for selfish reasons?
We can speculate all we want, but the proof of the pudding will be how well Marvin Maple presents himself at the trial, how well he sways the court regarding his side of things, and how he fares against the prosecutor.
Is Marvin Maple a hero, protecting his grandchildren from abuse, a deluded fellow who mistakenly believed his grandchildren were being abused, or an outright villain who stole his grandchildren for selfish reasons?
We can speculate all we want, but the proof of the pudding will be how well Marvin Maple presents himself at the trial, how well he sways the court regarding his side of things, and how he fares against the prosecutor.
By: PCLady on 2/7/09
hmmm, looks like the maples family found this article.
yeah, the baskins are devil worshipers. that's the absolutely most preposterous, nonsensical hogwash. seriously. do you know them? i do. not only should marvin maples be prosecuted for the horrible crime he committed, he should be sued for slander.
there is a special place in the universe for people who do horrible things to little children and decent people of God.
hmmm, looks like the maples family found this article.
yeah, the baskins are devil worshipers. that's the absolutely most preposterous, nonsensical hogwash. seriously. do you know them? i do. not only should marvin maples be prosecuted for the horrible crime he committed, he should be sued for slander.
there is a special place in the universe for people who do horrible things to little children and decent people of God.
By: attagirl on 2/8/09
There is no "his side" of this story for grandpa. There is no excuse, abuse or not, for kidnapping children. If abuse was really happening, it would have come out at the custody trial. He had an opportunity to convice a court that his grandkids were being abuse by satan-worshipping parents, and he FAILED. What he did is akin to murder and he should be thrown under the jail forever.
There is no "his side" of this story for grandpa. There is no excuse, abuse or not, for kidnapping children. If abuse was really happening, it would have come out at the custody trial. He had an opportunity to convice a court that his grandkids were being abuse by satan-worshipping parents, and he FAILED. What he did is akin to murder and he should be thrown under the jail forever.
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/8/09
"The children are REFUSING to meet with the parents."
What else do you need to know?
"The children are REFUSING to meet with the parents."
What else do you need to know?
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/8/09
No pc lady, I am not a Maple for your information. I don't pose as someone else under these posts like The Lost One does.
No pc lady, I am not a Maple for your information. I don't pose as someone else under these posts like The Lost One does.
By: mboroan on 2/8/09
SouthsideCA: I believe you are someone the Maples/Buntings know in California based on your username (California media have referred to the area the M/B family lives in as the "South Bay"; I expect you live there as well). It's also been reported in California that the people who reported Marvin Maple to law enforcement did so after reading online accounts of his crime and realizing that he was very likely not the "hero" he'd made himself out to be. I can assure you that the account he or the BASKIN children likely gave you with regard to his "huge house on a large piece of land" is very untrue. I grew up in the same neighborhood as the Maples' daughters, and their family home, while nice, is a very ordinary subdivision home on a very ordinary subdivision lot -- by the standards of Murfreesboro today, it's an older home in a quiet neighborhood, but far from "huge" or "on a large piece of land". There are many homes here that are much nicer, and far larger.
I went to school with both Debbie and her sister, and have known the large extended Baskin family since 1974; you only know one side of this story, and it is simply not true. Have you noticed that the only angry posters calling other people names, making libelous allegations, etc., have been on the Maple side of this story? There's a reason for that: the anger and bitterness are one-sided, just like the stories the children and everyone who came into contact with Marvin and Sandra Maple over the past 21 years have been told. I don't know that there will ever be an explanation for why they did what they did; severe mental illness on the part of one or both, and enabling by the other, is the best I can come up with.
By the way, it's obvious to me as the parent of a child of similar age that a 16-year-old is writing TheLostOne's posts! I applaud Paul for posting here; I'm just sorry he has to read the posts by the Maples' supporters as I'm sure they're very hurtful to him, even though he knows the character of his parents and family.
SouthsideCA: I believe you are someone the Maples/Buntings know in California based on your username (California media have referred to the area the M/B family lives in as the "South Bay"; I expect you live there as well). It's also been reported in California that the people who reported Marvin Maple to law enforcement did so after reading online accounts of his crime and realizing that he was very likely not the "hero" he'd made himself out to be. I can assure you that the account he or the BASKIN children likely gave you with regard to his "huge house on a large piece of land" is very untrue. I grew up in the same neighborhood as the Maples' daughters, and their family home, while nice, is a very ordinary subdivision home on a very ordinary subdivision lot -- by the standards of Murfreesboro today, it's an older home in a quiet neighborhood, but far from "huge" or "on a large piece of land". There are many homes here that are much nicer, and far larger.
I went to school with both Debbie and her sister, and have known the large extended Baskin family since 1974; you only know one side of this story, and it is simply not true. Have you noticed that the only angry posters calling other people names, making libelous allegations, etc., have been on the Maple side of this story? There's a reason for that: the anger and bitterness are one-sided, just like the stories the children and everyone who came into contact with Marvin and Sandra Maple over the past 21 years have been told. I don't know that there will ever be an explanation for why they did what they did; severe mental illness on the part of one or both, and enabling by the other, is the best I can come up with.
By the way, it's obvious to me as the parent of a child of similar age that a 16-year-old is writing TheLostOne's posts! I applaud Paul for posting here; I'm just sorry he has to read the posts by the Maples' supporters as I'm sure they're very hurtful to him, even though he knows the character of his parents and family.
By: Mitch on 2/8/09
Some of you people make me sick! The Baskins are wonderful people. 25 years ago Mr. Baskin served the youth of Smyrna as our band and music teacher. And we "The Pride of Smyrna" will never forget the difference that Baskins maded in our lives. As the Baskins restart life with their children let's be prayerfully supportive.
Some of you people make me sick! The Baskins are wonderful people. 25 years ago Mr. Baskin served the youth of Smyrna as our band and music teacher. And we "The Pride of Smyrna" will never forget the difference that Baskins maded in our lives. As the Baskins restart life with their children let's be prayerfully supportive.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/8/09
SOUTHSIDECA writes: "Just so you know satan worshippers do exist, everywhere and probably in larger numbers than we would like to believe. But you'll never catch them."
I have to ask if you will never catch them, what kind of factual evidence can you produce they exist "everywhere" or that the Baskin's had anything to do with them outside of the increasingly bizzare claims made against the parents, social workers and just about everyone else involved by the Maples'? Or perhaps, as you seem to be asserting it was all a vast satanic conspiracy.
Remember, it was the Baskin's not the Maples who were put under the microscope of a lengthy investigation by authorities and were exonerated of any wrong. I would suggest unless you have some evidence of a verifiable nature, you should avoid the lose satanic references and stick with the facts.
Kidnapping is a crime, a serious felony committed against the children and their parents. No child at age 7 or 8 is capable of making decisions that require abstract thought. The Maples' on the other hand were adults who knew they were violating a court order. Moreover, they were well aware of the consequences of the criminal act which they perpetrated.
The losers in this are not the perpetrators, although it is my fervent hope Maples is held to account. The ones who will suffer the most and the ones who have lost the most are the children and their parents.
SOUTHSIDECA writes: "Just so you know satan worshippers do exist, everywhere and probably in larger numbers than we would like to believe. But you'll never catch them."
I have to ask if you will never catch them, what kind of factual evidence can you produce they exist "everywhere" or that the Baskin's had anything to do with them outside of the increasingly bizzare claims made against the parents, social workers and just about everyone else involved by the Maples'? Or perhaps, as you seem to be asserting it was all a vast satanic conspiracy.
Remember, it was the Baskin's not the Maples who were put under the microscope of a lengthy investigation by authorities and were exonerated of any wrong. I would suggest unless you have some evidence of a verifiable nature, you should avoid the lose satanic references and stick with the facts.
Kidnapping is a crime, a serious felony committed against the children and their parents. No child at age 7 or 8 is capable of making decisions that require abstract thought. The Maples' on the other hand were adults who knew they were violating a court order. Moreover, they were well aware of the consequences of the criminal act which they perpetrated.
The losers in this are not the perpetrators, although it is my fervent hope Maples is held to account. The ones who will suffer the most and the ones who have lost the most are the children and their parents.
By: reservingjudgment on 2/8/09
To those who assume that the Baskins did nothing wrong, you are beyond naive. Yes, band and music teachers are capable of abuse. Perhaps the Baskins are innocent, but you don't know. There is more to this story than has been reported so far. It will be interesting to hear Jennifer and Jonathan's story, as well as their grandfather's story. Meanwhile, I hope those who have convicted Marvin Maples based on assumptions don't end up on a jury.
To those who assume that the Baskins did nothing wrong, you are beyond naive. Yes, band and music teachers are capable of abuse. Perhaps the Baskins are innocent, but you don't know. There is more to this story than has been reported so far. It will be interesting to hear Jennifer and Jonathan's story, as well as their grandfather's story. Meanwhile, I hope those who have convicted Marvin Maples based on assumptions don't end up on a jury.
By: CELKEE on 2/9/09
That's not what happened! The parents were being accused of sexually abusing Bobby and Christie.
If the Maples were so concerned about the children being sexually abused then why did they leave their younger brother with them?
It might have made a lot more sense for the Maples to take all three children rather than just the two.
That's not what happened! The parents were being accused of sexually abusing Bobby and Christie.
If the Maples were so concerned about the children being sexually abused then why did they leave their younger brother with them?
It might have made a lot more sense for the Maples to take all three children rather than just the two.
By: Sameera on 2/9/09
In response to CELKEE:
Yes, if the grandparents had fought tooth and nail to remove all three children from the parents, I would be more inclined to believe they had genuine concerns about the parents being child abusers.
In response to CELKEE:
Yes, if the grandparents had fought tooth and nail to remove all three children from the parents, I would be more inclined to believe they had genuine concerns about the parents being child abusers.
By: Mitch on 2/9/09
In response to reservingjudgment: Who is "Beyond Naive"? The Baskins faced investigation by the authorities. Cleared of any wrong...Could that mean the Baskins DID NOTHING WRONG? Granted there are those want a more to the story, but it wasn't the Baskins who were hidding from the truth for 20 years. I for one am trusting that you resergingjudgment do not, in your make no assumptions, "End up on a jury". By the way you should change your sign in to "passingjudgment"!!!
In response to reservingjudgment: Who is "Beyond Naive"? The Baskins faced investigation by the authorities. Cleared of any wrong...Could that mean the Baskins DID NOTHING WRONG? Granted there are those want a more to the story, but it wasn't the Baskins who were hidding from the truth for 20 years. I for one am trusting that you resergingjudgment do not, in your make no assumptions, "End up on a jury". By the way you should change your sign in to "passingjudgment"!!!
By: SocEtTuem on 2/9/09
reservingjudgment, I assume nothing. I have looked at the facts as presented. It is a matter of public record the Maples' accusations against the Baskin's (et al) were investigated and the Baskin's were exonerated. That is an incontrovertible fact. Perhaps it is you who are naive enough to swallow the satanic conspiracy nonsense? It is also a matter of fact that the Maples' were served a legal and binding court order to return the children to their parents. That is not a naive assumption. It is a matter of public record. The saintly Mr Maples (aka Bunting) is discovered after shooting off his mouth in a California gin mill. it seems loose lips sink more than ships to use an old metaphor. The children, brainwashed since early elementray school-age will now suffer. The parents had no idea where or what had happened to their children and were villified and slandered by the Maples only to be found innocent of any wrong. Those are facts, all public record. If you wish to accuse anyone of making naive assumptions, perhaps you should consider starting with the person staring back at you from your mirror.
reservingjudgment, I assume nothing. I have looked at the facts as presented. It is a matter of public record the Maples' accusations against the Baskin's (et al) were investigated and the Baskin's were exonerated. That is an incontrovertible fact. Perhaps it is you who are naive enough to swallow the satanic conspiracy nonsense? It is also a matter of fact that the Maples' were served a legal and binding court order to return the children to their parents. That is not a naive assumption. It is a matter of public record. The saintly Mr Maples (aka Bunting) is discovered after shooting off his mouth in a California gin mill. it seems loose lips sink more than ships to use an old metaphor. The children, brainwashed since early elementray school-age will now suffer. The parents had no idea where or what had happened to their children and were villified and slandered by the Maples only to be found innocent of any wrong. Those are facts, all public record. If you wish to accuse anyone of making naive assumptions, perhaps you should consider starting with the person staring back at you from your mirror.
By: BigUnitRaider on 2/9/09
Something about this story just doesn't smell right.
How is it that a 7 and 8 year old do not have the wherewithall to know that they are leaving with grandparents to move across the country and never have contact with their parents? If they wanted to go back, surely they would have made some sort of contact, even after they were grown.
Also, if there weren't more to the story, why would they not want to see their parents again?
Something about this story just doesn't smell right.
How is it that a 7 and 8 year old do not have the wherewithall to know that they are leaving with grandparents to move across the country and never have contact with their parents? If they wanted to go back, surely they would have made some sort of contact, even after they were grown.
Also, if there weren't more to the story, why would they not want to see their parents again?
By: BlessedBeyondMeasure on 2/9/09
tealady, it doesn't seem to me the Baskins are pushing them. In all their interviews, the Baskins have stated they understand that their children might not want to see them and are just elated to know they are alive and well and have led normal lives.
BigUnitRaider, it is possible that the children do remember them, but have been told untruths about their parents. And children, even adults, can be told things enough that it becomes fact in thier minds. And sometimes those fabricating the lies may even begin to believe them after so long.
But it is entirely possible that they don't remember their parents at all. We all have memories of that age, BUT we have had the benefit of reminiscing with others who were there, pictures of events, sometimes videos of different happenings. The Baskin children more than likely did not have that. Obviously the Maples did not want them connected to the Baskins so I'm sure never shared photos or memories, etc. And if they did, I am sure they were negative memories (parents died, molested them, parents didn't want them) to make sure the children would not want to see them when they were old enough to search them out.
Even at age 7 and 8, it is possible to have memories changed and/or forget things.
I, of course, have no idea if the Baskins did molest their children. I, personally, do not think they did, but I do think the Maples most likely felt the Baskins did.
When you take into account how quickly CPS usually reacts on the side of caution (most of the time to a fault) but yet did not find ANY reason to remove these kids after a very thorough investigation and how the stories being told evolved into things really bizarre and the fact that the Baskins were rarely seeing the children, it just seems to me that it is very unlikely that there was actually anything to the stories.
Unfortunately, if you ask leading questions to a child, you'll likely get a response that you led them into. And by doing that it's possible to create "false memories." Which is why investigators have to be careful of their wording. I think this is what happened in this case.
I find it hard to believe a mother/grandmother and father/grandfather would leave all their other children and grandchildren to never see them again and risk going to jail on simply wanting those two children to raise. Maybe, one parent/grandparent might be obsessed enough, but both?? Then I wonder why the Maples or their extended family never tried to "rescue" Michael if they truly thought there was danger in that family. Sure they were in a different state than Michael but why not get him out of there? Why not petition the courts for custody of him also? And why didn't the Maple family members, if they believed it all too, not continue on with what Marvin and Sandra had started and at least stayed involved in Michael's life as a look out for him?
But as for now, the adult children I'm sure are devastated. Whether it be they were told nothing of their parents and have forgotten their past with them or have been told negative things about them (which are more than likely lies...even though the Maples may have honestly believed them), they will need a lot of time to be able to accept a lot of things. I just hope at some point, they will at least speak to the Baskins and especially their younger brother. As much as we'd all like to know the ins and outs, I think we just need to pray for those two adult children.
tealady, it doesn't seem to me the Baskins are pushing them. In all their interviews, the Baskins have stated they understand that their children might not want to see them and are just elated to know they are alive and well and have led normal lives.
BigUnitRaider, it is possible that the children do remember them, but have been told untruths about their parents. And children, even adults, can be told things enough that it becomes fact in thier minds. And sometimes those fabricating the lies may even begin to believe them after so long.
But it is entirely possible that they don't remember their parents at all. We all have memories of that age, BUT we have had the benefit of reminiscing with others who were there, pictures of events, sometimes videos of different happenings. The Baskin children more than likely did not have that. Obviously the Maples did not want them connected to the Baskins so I'm sure never shared photos or memories, etc. And if they did, I am sure they were negative memories (parents died, molested them, parents didn't want them) to make sure the children would not want to see them when they were old enough to search them out.
Even at age 7 and 8, it is possible to have memories changed and/or forget things.
I, of course, have no idea if the Baskins did molest their children. I, personally, do not think they did, but I do think the Maples most likely felt the Baskins did.
When you take into account how quickly CPS usually reacts on the side of caution (most of the time to a fault) but yet did not find ANY reason to remove these kids after a very thorough investigation and how the stories being told evolved into things really bizarre and the fact that the Baskins were rarely seeing the children, it just seems to me that it is very unlikely that there was actually anything to the stories.
Unfortunately, if you ask leading questions to a child, you'll likely get a response that you led them into. And by doing that it's possible to create "false memories." Which is why investigators have to be careful of their wording. I think this is what happened in this case.
I find it hard to believe a mother/grandmother and father/grandfather would leave all their other children and grandchildren to never see them again and risk going to jail on simply wanting those two children to raise. Maybe, one parent/grandparent might be obsessed enough, but both?? Then I wonder why the Maples or their extended family never tried to "rescue" Michael if they truly thought there was danger in that family. Sure they were in a different state than Michael but why not get him out of there? Why not petition the courts for custody of him also? And why didn't the Maple family members, if they believed it all too, not continue on with what Marvin and Sandra had started and at least stayed involved in Michael's life as a look out for him?
But as for now, the adult children I'm sure are devastated. Whether it be they were told nothing of their parents and have forgotten their past with them or have been told negative things about them (which are more than likely lies...even though the Maples may have honestly believed them), they will need a lot of time to be able to accept a lot of things. I just hope at some point, they will at least speak to the Baskins and especially their younger brother. As much as we'd all like to know the ins and outs, I think we just need to pray for those two adult children.
By: reservingjudgment on 2/9/09
mitch and socketuem:
Apparently you believe the authorities NEVER make a mistake. They are ALWAYS right. And, the justice system NEVER fails. Child abuse is particularly difficult to investigate. It is done in secret and the victims are young and vulnerable and often fearful of telling the "secrets." Those are facts established through study of this subject by experts in the field. I am not saying that I know for sure that these children were abused by their parents, but I also don't know for sure that they were not abused and neither do you. Child sexual abuse is such a taboo topic that NOBODY really wants to believe it's true. It is unthinkable for most of us.
mitch and socketuem:
Apparently you believe the authorities NEVER make a mistake. They are ALWAYS right. And, the justice system NEVER fails. Child abuse is particularly difficult to investigate. It is done in secret and the victims are young and vulnerable and often fearful of telling the "secrets." Those are facts established through study of this subject by experts in the field. I am not saying that I know for sure that these children were abused by their parents, but I also don't know for sure that they were not abused and neither do you. Child sexual abuse is such a taboo topic that NOBODY really wants to believe it's true. It is unthinkable for most of us.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/9/09
reservingjudgment,
Are you rationalizing now? As has been pointed out in another post, CPS is universally well known for erring on the side of the children and if there had been even a shred of credible evidence of abuse they would have acted. More than that, this investigation was not limited to a single agency, but involved several. You would have to believe in either a vast conspiracy involving several different agencies or accept that all agencies and investigators, not to mention the courts, were incompetent in the extreme. In addition, the "experts" in the field of child abuse you mention - or at least those purported to be "experts" - have made grevious errors in tne past. The McMartin Preschool witch hunt, which involved allegations of widespread physical, sexual and psychological abuse, including "the devil made me do it" satanic ritual claims comes to mind. All the charges were later determined to be patently false, the product of overreaching and over zealous investigators. In my opinion, what it clearly demonstrated is that most who claimed to be experts in the field were not.
Indeed, the justice system fails from time to time as it did in the case of the falsely accused McMartin family. Of one thing there is no doubt, kidnapping is a felony and until the not so distant past, a capital offense. That the Baskin children were taken unlawfully (read kidnapped) is beyond dispute. Your defense of Maples is based on personal speculation and off-handed dismissal of the original official multi-agency investigation.
reservingjudgment,
Are you rationalizing now? As has been pointed out in another post, CPS is universally well known for erring on the side of the children and if there had been even a shred of credible evidence of abuse they would have acted. More than that, this investigation was not limited to a single agency, but involved several. You would have to believe in either a vast conspiracy involving several different agencies or accept that all agencies and investigators, not to mention the courts, were incompetent in the extreme. In addition, the "experts" in the field of child abuse you mention - or at least those purported to be "experts" - have made grevious errors in tne past. The McMartin Preschool witch hunt, which involved allegations of widespread physical, sexual and psychological abuse, including "the devil made me do it" satanic ritual claims comes to mind. All the charges were later determined to be patently false, the product of overreaching and over zealous investigators. In my opinion, what it clearly demonstrated is that most who claimed to be experts in the field were not.
Indeed, the justice system fails from time to time as it did in the case of the falsely accused McMartin family. Of one thing there is no doubt, kidnapping is a felony and until the not so distant past, a capital offense. That the Baskin children were taken unlawfully (read kidnapped) is beyond dispute. Your defense of Maples is based on personal speculation and off-handed dismissal of the original official multi-agency investigation.
By: PCLady on 2/9/09
actually, reservingjudgement, i don't think anyone maintains that authorities never make mistakes, or that they are always right and never fail. but you are speaking in generalities. we are speaking in specifics. that is the main difference in this whole debate. this case was investigated thoroughly. this specific case. and by several people. generally speaking, when the system fails in child custody cases, it is when parents are actually found to be lacking by dhs and the judge gives the children back, contrary to social workers advisement. and uaually after the offending parent has been removed from the home.
that was not the case here. there was no evidence of abuse in this specific case, neither physical or mental. the children were in the temporary custody of the maples, per their accusations and pending the aforesaid investigation. doctors, detectives, case workers were accused, by the maples of being in cahoots with the supposed satan worshiping cult, by the maples. even christi and bobby themselves had no knowledge of this abuse they were said to be the victims of.
there is nothing to substantiate these accusations. i would just like to know what exactly happened to make the maples believe this occurred when they had no pictures, no physical evidence, no eye witness accounts, and no verbal affirmation from either christi or bobby? by these standards anyone could accuse anyone of anything and just based on that alone a grandparent has the right to abduct their grandchildren? it might be different if there was something, anything tangible to support the maples story, but there just isn't.
actually, reservingjudgement, i don't think anyone maintains that authorities never make mistakes, or that they are always right and never fail. but you are speaking in generalities. we are speaking in specifics. that is the main difference in this whole debate. this case was investigated thoroughly. this specific case. and by several people. generally speaking, when the system fails in child custody cases, it is when parents are actually found to be lacking by dhs and the judge gives the children back, contrary to social workers advisement. and uaually after the offending parent has been removed from the home.
that was not the case here. there was no evidence of abuse in this specific case, neither physical or mental. the children were in the temporary custody of the maples, per their accusations and pending the aforesaid investigation. doctors, detectives, case workers were accused, by the maples of being in cahoots with the supposed satan worshiping cult, by the maples. even christi and bobby themselves had no knowledge of this abuse they were said to be the victims of.
there is nothing to substantiate these accusations. i would just like to know what exactly happened to make the maples believe this occurred when they had no pictures, no physical evidence, no eye witness accounts, and no verbal affirmation from either christi or bobby? by these standards anyone could accuse anyone of anything and just based on that alone a grandparent has the right to abduct their grandchildren? it might be different if there was something, anything tangible to support the maples story, but there just isn't.
By: Mitch on 2/10/09
reservingjudgment:
Apparently you still don't get. I'll speak plainly. Some where there is a village missing a perfectly good idot. Go home they miss you. By the way you still haven't changed your sign in to "passing judgment"
reservingjudgment:
Apparently you still don't get. I'll speak plainly. Some where there is a village missing a perfectly good idot. Go home they miss you. By the way you still haven't changed your sign in to "passing judgment"
By: reservingjudgment on 2/10/09
mitch:
What I get is that you resort to personal attacks when someone says something you don't agree with.
socettueum:
At least you present some facts when you don't agree. I appreciate that. However, mistakes are made by those involved in child abuse investigations and I have personal and professional experience with this subject. I wrote a series of stories on Child Protective Services for a newspaper company and received an award for investigative journalism for the series. Children were killed or maimed or emotionally scarred when CPS workers failed to believe them and protect them. The McMartin case is an obvious example of the opposite result. All I want you and others reading this to consider is that child abuse investigations are not an exact science.
The kidnapping is a given. However, if those children were taken in order to shield them from abuse, then Maples had a good reason to take his desperate action.
I would like to hear what the now grown Baskins children have to say as well as what Maples has to say. Until then, I am reserving judgment.
mitch:
What I get is that you resort to personal attacks when someone says something you don't agree with.
socettueum:
At least you present some facts when you don't agree. I appreciate that. However, mistakes are made by those involved in child abuse investigations and I have personal and professional experience with this subject. I wrote a series of stories on Child Protective Services for a newspaper company and received an award for investigative journalism for the series. Children were killed or maimed or emotionally scarred when CPS workers failed to believe them and protect them. The McMartin case is an obvious example of the opposite result. All I want you and others reading this to consider is that child abuse investigations are not an exact science.
The kidnapping is a given. However, if those children were taken in order to shield them from abuse, then Maples had a good reason to take his desperate action.
I would like to hear what the now grown Baskins children have to say as well as what Maples has to say. Until then, I am reserving judgment.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/11/09
reservingjudgment,
Your conclusions are based on a background in journalism? Sadly, in these times, journalism is agenda driven. Despite an almost amusing denial, instead of watchdogs the media have become lapdogs for their favorite agendas, political or social. Informed people will take anyting they read in print media or hear in the electronic media cum grano salis. While not impuning your honesty and admitting CPS has failed in some cases, if you do your research, you will find in the cases of such failure there were not multi-agency investigations, but in the main, lapses by caseworkers or incredibly inept rulings by judges in the face of clear evidence.
I am far more inclined to accept a conclusion based on similar findings from several different responsible agencies as that reduces the possibility of error.
As to the remaining Baskin children, it is my understanding they have led normal lives and there is not a hint of any abuse. Based on the well documented history of recidivism in child sexual abuse cases, this makes me even more suspicious of the Maples allegations. Indeed, the Baskins have offered publically for Christi and Bobby to meet with their siblings. As has been pointed out throughout this exchange, had the Maples felt their allegations could have been proven, or even supported, they would not have snatched the children, fled and changed their identities in an obvious effort to hide from the authorities. I must tell you it is my conviction that any claim by the Maples they were acting as the result of parental abuse is an extreme reach. Any such contention when taken in context with the Maples premeditated unlwaful flight strains credibility.
The grandfather is entitled to his day in court and the presumption of innocence. No doubt he will be afforded more consideration than he was willing to give his daughter and son-in-law.
reservingjudgment,
Your conclusions are based on a background in journalism? Sadly, in these times, journalism is agenda driven. Despite an almost amusing denial, instead of watchdogs the media have become lapdogs for their favorite agendas, political or social. Informed people will take anyting they read in print media or hear in the electronic media cum grano salis. While not impuning your honesty and admitting CPS has failed in some cases, if you do your research, you will find in the cases of such failure there were not multi-agency investigations, but in the main, lapses by caseworkers or incredibly inept rulings by judges in the face of clear evidence.
I am far more inclined to accept a conclusion based on similar findings from several different responsible agencies as that reduces the possibility of error.
As to the remaining Baskin children, it is my understanding they have led normal lives and there is not a hint of any abuse. Based on the well documented history of recidivism in child sexual abuse cases, this makes me even more suspicious of the Maples allegations. Indeed, the Baskins have offered publically for Christi and Bobby to meet with their siblings. As has been pointed out throughout this exchange, had the Maples felt their allegations could have been proven, or even supported, they would not have snatched the children, fled and changed their identities in an obvious effort to hide from the authorities. I must tell you it is my conviction that any claim by the Maples they were acting as the result of parental abuse is an extreme reach. Any such contention when taken in context with the Maples premeditated unlwaful flight strains credibility.
The grandfather is entitled to his day in court and the presumption of innocence. No doubt he will be afforded more consideration than he was willing to give his daughter and son-in-law.
By: reservingjudgment on 2/11/09
socettuem:
You make some good points. I do not have access to the original investigations and wonder what "multi-agency" means in this context. Given this lack of information, I can't fairly judge the accuracy of the investigations.
It's my understanding that Mark Baskin waged a sexual abuse charge against his own father (concerning Bobby) and withdrew it. That alone makes me wonder. I was told that the charge is in the public record.
As far as the younger Baskin children not showing "a hint of any abuse," I would be careful not to draw any conclusions. Abuse -- especially sexual abuse -- causes shame and secrecy and is often not reported to authorities. I'm sure you've read about the molestations by priests. Those didn't come out until the victims were well into adulthood.
The Maples did take extreme action, but that just makes me wonder what they saw or experienced that would prompt them to do so. Again, I don't know their true motives. Hopefully, that will come out in the court proceeding.
The fairness of journalism is another topic altogether. It has never been completely objective, but there are particular news organizations that have become obvious in their slant. I always consider the source or sources.
I appreciate the fair and civil exchange of ideas with you.
socettuem:
You make some good points. I do not have access to the original investigations and wonder what "multi-agency" means in this context. Given this lack of information, I can't fairly judge the accuracy of the investigations.
It's my understanding that Mark Baskin waged a sexual abuse charge against his own father (concerning Bobby) and withdrew it. That alone makes me wonder. I was told that the charge is in the public record.
As far as the younger Baskin children not showing "a hint of any abuse," I would be careful not to draw any conclusions. Abuse -- especially sexual abuse -- causes shame and secrecy and is often not reported to authorities. I'm sure you've read about the molestations by priests. Those didn't come out until the victims were well into adulthood.
The Maples did take extreme action, but that just makes me wonder what they saw or experienced that would prompt them to do so. Again, I don't know their true motives. Hopefully, that will come out in the court proceeding.
The fairness of journalism is another topic altogether. It has never been completely objective, but there are particular news organizations that have become obvious in their slant. I always consider the source or sources.
I appreciate the fair and civil exchange of ideas with you.
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/11/09
IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM OF THE UNITED STATES, one is rarely convicted IF EVER on the basis of hearsay. IN MOST CHILD MOLESTATION CASES usually the only proof anyone has are testimonys. Sometimes the parents don't want to put the kids on the stand. Then all you have left are people's opinions, and we don't convict on opinions. I can't wait until the truth comes out. I would rather take the side of a kidnapper with good intentions than a PERVERT who thinks they are righteous.
I can't believe all of the "parents" who are posting and acting like they are SO SURE that no perverts were involved in this case. I wouldn't be willing to take that chance. Not with anyone's kids.
IN THE JUSTICE SYSTEM OF THE UNITED STATES, one is rarely convicted IF EVER on the basis of hearsay. IN MOST CHILD MOLESTATION CASES usually the only proof anyone has are testimonys. Sometimes the parents don't want to put the kids on the stand. Then all you have left are people's opinions, and we don't convict on opinions. I can't wait until the truth comes out. I would rather take the side of a kidnapper with good intentions than a PERVERT who thinks they are righteous.
I can't believe all of the "parents" who are posting and acting like they are SO SURE that no perverts were involved in this case. I wouldn't be willing to take that chance. Not with anyone's kids.
By: SanJose_Charlie on 2/11/09
The truth came out twenty years a go. Multiple agencies cleared the upstanding Baskin family. Bobby and Christi were going to live with their parents and little brother, not Mark's dad. Instead they were abducted by grandparents who believed the authorities were in on a Satanic conspiracy? Other eye-witness posters on the other threads here, have stated that Sandra was strange and mentally ill. She obviously got use to having the kids around.
If you were a Satanist would you waste all you time and MONEY, at a boring Baptist seminary ? Or would you find a real place to party at.... like New Orleans.
The truth came out twenty years a go. Multiple agencies cleared the upstanding Baskin family. Bobby and Christi were going to live with their parents and little brother, not Mark's dad. Instead they were abducted by grandparents who believed the authorities were in on a Satanic conspiracy? Other eye-witness posters on the other threads here, have stated that Sandra was strange and mentally ill. She obviously got use to having the kids around.
If you were a Satanist would you waste all you time and MONEY, at a boring Baptist seminary ? Or would you find a real place to party at.... like New Orleans.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/12/09
reservingjudgment, I can find nothing concerning any allegations made by Baskin against his father, public or otherwise. Have you a source? Multi-agency meaning CPS, Police, Guardian ad litum, District Attorney's Office and the cognizant judicial authority. The initital investigation was not a one day wonder, but and in depth vetting of the ever-expanding accusations leveled by the Maples.
Clerical abuse is another matter and is not limited to priests. Having said that, only a very small percent of child sexual abuse is related to clergy, less than one percent if my memory serves me, but it has gotten wide publicity. That is a separate discussion altogether.
All of the allegations against the Baskins have been investigated and found by competent authority to be unsubstantiated. Unless and until there is verifiable evidence to the contrary, that is and will be presented as a fact in evidence at Maple's trial.
Given that it's possible to indict a ham sandwich for just about anything, it should be fairly clear to even the most cynical that in the absence of such an indictment the allegations against the Baskin's are unfounded.
reservingjudgment, I can find nothing concerning any allegations made by Baskin against his father, public or otherwise. Have you a source? Multi-agency meaning CPS, Police, Guardian ad litum, District Attorney's Office and the cognizant judicial authority. The initital investigation was not a one day wonder, but and in depth vetting of the ever-expanding accusations leveled by the Maples.
Clerical abuse is another matter and is not limited to priests. Having said that, only a very small percent of child sexual abuse is related to clergy, less than one percent if my memory serves me, but it has gotten wide publicity. That is a separate discussion altogether.
All of the allegations against the Baskins have been investigated and found by competent authority to be unsubstantiated. Unless and until there is verifiable evidence to the contrary, that is and will be presented as a fact in evidence at Maple's trial.
Given that it's possible to indict a ham sandwich for just about anything, it should be fairly clear to even the most cynical that in the absence of such an indictment the allegations against the Baskin's are unfounded.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/12/09
SouthsideCa,
In the justice systen of the United States and specifically Tennessee, hearsay evidence is inadmissable, therefore it is hardly possible anyone would ever be convicted on that basis alone. Indeed, "we" do not convict on opinion, we do so on credible evidence and a standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, you seem to take for granted the Baskins are guilty of a crime without applying that standard.
You are free to speculate wildly about possibilities but in the absence of evidence - any evidence other than scurrilous allegations - you cannot reasonably assume guilt. Yet, you write your libelous rants about perverts without one scintilla of credible proof to substantiate them. Incredible.
SouthsideCa,
In the justice systen of the United States and specifically Tennessee, hearsay evidence is inadmissable, therefore it is hardly possible anyone would ever be convicted on that basis alone. Indeed, "we" do not convict on opinion, we do so on credible evidence and a standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, you seem to take for granted the Baskins are guilty of a crime without applying that standard.
You are free to speculate wildly about possibilities but in the absence of evidence - any evidence other than scurrilous allegations - you cannot reasonably assume guilt. Yet, you write your libelous rants about perverts without one scintilla of credible proof to substantiate them. Incredible.
By: reservingjudgment on 2/12/09
socettuem:
Do you have access to police records going back more than 20 years? Were you involved in the original investigation or did you just read about it recently? I understand the meaning of multi-agency, but are you saying that all these agencies were involved in the original investigation?
In order to objectively investigate sexual abuse, professionals with specific expertise in assessing children for sexual abuse need to be involved. Hopefully, CPS had staff with that expertise but the other agencies may or may not have had staff with that expertise. How can you be sure the "evidence" was verified by "competent authority?"
It is not easy to indict in child sexual abuse cases. Again, this horrible crime is done in secret and often no physical evidence is available. It causes such shame and fear that victims often don't tell anyone.
I've sat in on multiple group counseling sessions for adult survivors of child sexual abuse and I know of only one who reported the abuse. In that case, Christy (not Christy Baskin) told her mother about her stepfather and her mother didn't believe her.
I don't know what the Baskin children told authorities, but I would like to hear what they have to say now. Normally, CPS investigations are private so I don't know how people outside the loop of the original investigation could know the content of those files.
socettuem:
Do you have access to police records going back more than 20 years? Were you involved in the original investigation or did you just read about it recently? I understand the meaning of multi-agency, but are you saying that all these agencies were involved in the original investigation?
In order to objectively investigate sexual abuse, professionals with specific expertise in assessing children for sexual abuse need to be involved. Hopefully, CPS had staff with that expertise but the other agencies may or may not have had staff with that expertise. How can you be sure the "evidence" was verified by "competent authority?"
It is not easy to indict in child sexual abuse cases. Again, this horrible crime is done in secret and often no physical evidence is available. It causes such shame and fear that victims often don't tell anyone.
I've sat in on multiple group counseling sessions for adult survivors of child sexual abuse and I know of only one who reported the abuse. In that case, Christy (not Christy Baskin) told her mother about her stepfather and her mother didn't believe her.
I don't know what the Baskin children told authorities, but I would like to hear what they have to say now. Normally, CPS investigations are private so I don't know how people outside the loop of the original investigation could know the content of those files.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/12/09
reservingjudgment writes "Do you have access to police records going back more than 20 years? Were you involved in the original investigation or did you just read about it recently? I understand the meaning of multi-agency, but are you saying that all these agencies were involved in the original investigation?"
I wish I did have that kind of access. I have to rely on the same public record as everyone else. These agencies were involved and as you point out CPS records are generally not made available to the public. It is public record that the Guardian Ad Litum for the Baskin Children filed the kidnapping charges aga8inst the Maples. As in any criminal investigation, the police/sheriff and the District Attorney General's office are involved. Given the gravity of the accusations leveled by the Maples, it should come as no surprise. It is also a matter of record the Maples charges became increasingly bizzare and began to include the agencies involved in the investigation. Obviously it was not going their way. This, as I understand it was when the Maples contention of a satanic conspiracy surfaced.
All of this will coume out again at trial and that is one transcript that will be very interesting to read.
I too would be curious about what the Baskin children have to say but I would have to consider the very real - and likely - probability that the Maples did their best to convince (read brainwash) the children of their parents evil deeds. If you tell a child something often enough or even suggest it often enough, they will begin to accept it as truth. The McMartin case is a perfect example.
reservingjudgment writes "Do you have access to police records going back more than 20 years? Were you involved in the original investigation or did you just read about it recently? I understand the meaning of multi-agency, but are you saying that all these agencies were involved in the original investigation?"
I wish I did have that kind of access. I have to rely on the same public record as everyone else. These agencies were involved and as you point out CPS records are generally not made available to the public. It is public record that the Guardian Ad Litum for the Baskin Children filed the kidnapping charges aga8inst the Maples. As in any criminal investigation, the police/sheriff and the District Attorney General's office are involved. Given the gravity of the accusations leveled by the Maples, it should come as no surprise. It is also a matter of record the Maples charges became increasingly bizzare and began to include the agencies involved in the investigation. Obviously it was not going their way. This, as I understand it was when the Maples contention of a satanic conspiracy surfaced.
All of this will coume out again at trial and that is one transcript that will be very interesting to read.
I too would be curious about what the Baskin children have to say but I would have to consider the very real - and likely - probability that the Maples did their best to convince (read brainwash) the children of their parents evil deeds. If you tell a child something often enough or even suggest it often enough, they will begin to accept it as truth. The McMartin case is a perfect example.
By: Sameera on 2/16/09
Dear SocETuem,
The question of brainwashing could well cast a cloud of doubt over the reliability of the children's testimony, and we don't even know what they will say in their testimony.
In the Peter Ellis case (the New Zealand equivalent of the McMartin case) two of the allegedly abused children claim to have very vivid memories of being locked in cages, etc. Unfortunately, however vivid their memories may be, the question will always remain as to whether these are true memories or false memories implanted by inappropriate questioning, etc. So if Ellis were retried, would the children's testimony be even admissible because there is too much doubt as to whether it is reliable? The same may well apply to the Baskin case. We will just have to see exactly what the Baskin children have to say, what the experts think and what the judge thinks about the reliability of the evidence.
Dear SocETuem,
The question of brainwashing could well cast a cloud of doubt over the reliability of the children's testimony, and we don't even know what they will say in their testimony.
In the Peter Ellis case (the New Zealand equivalent of the McMartin case) two of the allegedly abused children claim to have very vivid memories of being locked in cages, etc. Unfortunately, however vivid their memories may be, the question will always remain as to whether these are true memories or false memories implanted by inappropriate questioning, etc. So if Ellis were retried, would the children's testimony be even admissible because there is too much doubt as to whether it is reliable? The same may well apply to the Baskin case. We will just have to see exactly what the Baskin children have to say, what the experts think and what the judge thinks about the reliability of the evidence.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/16/09
Sameera, I agree completely. I am not familiar witht he Ellis case but those same vivid yet false memories were implanted in the alleged victims in the McMartin debacle.
Marvin Maple has a very big hill to climb. There is no doubt he and his late wife took the Baskin children with the intent of never returning them. He likely may have never been caught if he had stayed out of a California bar and kept his mouth shut, but he didn't. The only way Maple wins now is by jury nullification. Any testimony by the Baskin children would be highly suspect in my opinion. That fact would likely be brough up in any cross examination and/or pointed out in any summation by the state if their testimony is allowed at all.
Sameera, I agree completely. I am not familiar witht he Ellis case but those same vivid yet false memories were implanted in the alleged victims in the McMartin debacle.
Marvin Maple has a very big hill to climb. There is no doubt he and his late wife took the Baskin children with the intent of never returning them. He likely may have never been caught if he had stayed out of a California bar and kept his mouth shut, but he didn't. The only way Maple wins now is by jury nullification. Any testimony by the Baskin children would be highly suspect in my opinion. That fact would likely be brough up in any cross examination and/or pointed out in any summation by the state if their testimony is allowed at all.
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/17/09
Quite the contrary, I think the childrens' testimonys would be of the highest importance in this case. Nice try but the power of that suggestion isn't going to work.
Quite the contrary, I think the childrens' testimonys would be of the highest importance in this case. Nice try but the power of that suggestion isn't going to work.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/17/09
I believe, Southsideca, you either have an agenda which is seriously clouding your judgment or refuse to accept what should be obvious to the most casual observer. Anyone with even a hint of sense of reality would surely consider the very real probability that the Baskin children were indoctrinated by the Maples. What other excuse could the Maples have possibly offered to the children when they kidnapped them? Hey kids, we're going on a twenty year trip to Disneyland? And by the way, we're going to change our identities just for fun. To use a common metaphor, Southsideca, wake up and smell the coffee.
I believe, Southsideca, you either have an agenda which is seriously clouding your judgment or refuse to accept what should be obvious to the most casual observer. Anyone with even a hint of sense of reality would surely consider the very real probability that the Baskin children were indoctrinated by the Maples. What other excuse could the Maples have possibly offered to the children when they kidnapped them? Hey kids, we're going on a twenty year trip to Disneyland? And by the way, we're going to change our identities just for fun. To use a common metaphor, Southsideca, wake up and smell the coffee.
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/18/09
Does your last name start with a "B"? I am awake.
Does your last name start with a "B"? I am awake.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/18/09
SOUTHSIDECA says on 2/18/09
"Does your last name start with a "B"? I am awake."
What an absolutely childish and inane question. If you can't do better than that, it might be good advice for you not to try. Perhaps next you will ask if I am part of the ongoing satanic plot?
SOUTHSIDECA says on 2/18/09
"Does your last name start with a "B"? I am awake."
What an absolutely childish and inane question. If you can't do better than that, it might be good advice for you not to try. Perhaps next you will ask if I am part of the ongoing satanic plot?
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/18/09
Well....are you? And you attacked me first. Nowhere in these discussions have I personally attacked a poster unless it was only in a response to attacks on me, like the one above. Now who is child and inane?
This is place where you can voice your opinions. You don't know me so where do you find your justification for attacking me? Just because you think I am wrong it means that you have the god given right to do that? How can I respect your opinion in that case? I think you are wrong, but I don't attack you. And what does make you think that you are so right if you are just a casual observer?
Well....are you? And you attacked me first. Nowhere in these discussions have I personally attacked a poster unless it was only in a response to attacks on me, like the one above. Now who is child and inane?
This is place where you can voice your opinions. You don't know me so where do you find your justification for attacking me? Just because you think I am wrong it means that you have the god given right to do that? How can I respect your opinion in that case? I think you are wrong, but I don't attack you. And what does make you think that you are so right if you are just a casual observer?
By: SocEtTuem on 2/18/09
You have, SOUTHSIDECA, impuned the honesty, intelligence and veracity of every poster on this and all related subjects. You have made intemperate and odious comments about the motives of those who disagree with you and have generally acted like a spoiled, angry adolescent having a tantrum when anyone dare question your self-proclaimed omnipotence on the subject. You have refused utterly to accept the historical record of facts in this case. Moreover, you have failed miserably at presenting even a scintilla, an iota of credible evidence to support your persistent rants. Now you retreat into the passive and much offended "poor me, I am a victim and you are attacking me" defense. I suggest it's time for you to exercise some critical thinking, abstract thought and abandon the victim approach. It is not my intention to become involved in a silly, useless exchange with someone so obviously unprepared for an intellectual exchange. You may instead rant to yourself. No one here is buying your nonsense.
You have, SOUTHSIDECA, impuned the honesty, intelligence and veracity of every poster on this and all related subjects. You have made intemperate and odious comments about the motives of those who disagree with you and have generally acted like a spoiled, angry adolescent having a tantrum when anyone dare question your self-proclaimed omnipotence on the subject. You have refused utterly to accept the historical record of facts in this case. Moreover, you have failed miserably at presenting even a scintilla, an iota of credible evidence to support your persistent rants. Now you retreat into the passive and much offended "poor me, I am a victim and you are attacking me" defense. I suggest it's time for you to exercise some critical thinking, abstract thought and abandon the victim approach. It is not my intention to become involved in a silly, useless exchange with someone so obviously unprepared for an intellectual exchange. You may instead rant to yourself. No one here is buying your nonsense.
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/19/09
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. It is not nonsense. The truth will come out when it is supposed to and when it does you just might see that you are not as intelligent as you would like to think you are. You have not given an iota of credible evidence to support your rants either, failing miserably as you say. The victims here are the children--not me. Nothing you just said justifies your personal attacks on me. And by the way, I'm not looking for an intellectual exchange. I am just sticking up for what I believe is RIGHT. Morally.
Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. It is not nonsense. The truth will come out when it is supposed to and when it does you just might see that you are not as intelligent as you would like to think you are. You have not given an iota of credible evidence to support your rants either, failing miserably as you say. The victims here are the children--not me. Nothing you just said justifies your personal attacks on me. And by the way, I'm not looking for an intellectual exchange. I am just sticking up for what I believe is RIGHT. Morally.
By: SocEtTuem on 2/19/09
SOUTHSIDECA says on 2/19/09
"ell excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me."
To be blunt, there is no excuse for you. Moreover, I am happy to hear you are not seeking an intellectual exchange. In your case, that would be a manifest impossibility. Facts are anathema to you. Without one single shred of substantiation and with no regard for the facts in evidence, you have delcared the Bskins are devil worshiping, satanist, child abusers. Your overreaching self-righteous pontificating is as indecently amoral as your wild allegations for which you have been able to offer nothing but your personal opinion as proof. There is nothing whatever morally right about that.
SOUTHSIDECA says on 2/19/09
"ell excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me."
To be blunt, there is no excuse for you. Moreover, I am happy to hear you are not seeking an intellectual exchange. In your case, that would be a manifest impossibility. Facts are anathema to you. Without one single shred of substantiation and with no regard for the facts in evidence, you have delcared the Bskins are devil worshiping, satanist, child abusers. Your overreaching self-righteous pontificating is as indecently amoral as your wild allegations for which you have been able to offer nothing but your personal opinion as proof. There is nothing whatever morally right about that.
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/21/09
Okay, I said I appreciated your ability to write well, but that doesn't meant to get carried away.
Okay, I said I appreciated your ability to write well, but that doesn't meant to get carried away.
By: SOUTHSIDECA on 2/21/09
We'll see.
We'll see.
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